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January 26, 2010

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Lori

omfg. this needs to be in O mag.

mimi

Weird, but I have that Lucy cartoon on my office door to indicate when I'm in for my office hours ...

Um, we use time outs with our spirited child too. We count to three first. We tell her what has to happen/not happen to avoid the time out. We pick our battles (usually, hitting or kicking is a time out, and repeated defiance of something important) We time it. We have a hug after.

Still. Our number one time-out offense is the tantrum. She can work herself up SOMETHING FIERCE and we tell her very calmly that she we can try to help her calm down, or she can calm down on her own, but that if she continues to FREAK THE FUCK OUT AT DOG WHISTLE PITCH AND AIR RAID SIREN VOLUME she will have to hang out in her room until she's prepared to be civilized.

So. Her time outs in that scenario often last upwards of half an hour. We go up to her room every three minutes or so to ask "are you ready to calm down now?". And she'll yell NO! and kick us, and we leave again.

When she's finally through, she's exhausted and we try to be super-supportive, giving her hugs and such, and saying, "I'm so glad you are trying to calm down now, let me help you!"

I don't know how this kind of time out fits into the larger scheme you're articulating, but 90% of our time outs are not for any particular behavioural transgression like hitting but rather secondary: something goes wrong, she freaks completely out, and then won't calm down.

Mama Bub

Thank you for the "calm and neutral" reminder.

I am trying very hard to be consistent with the time outs, but I find the very process makes me crazy. He walks to walk there by himself, which is fine, but when he gets within range of the chair, he takes off or gets down from the chair immediately after he's on it.

I'm going to try moving him to his bed next time he runs away/gets down before time is up. It is a bit hard, however, at 5 months pregnant, dealing with a 40 lb two year old who will need to be carried upstairs, to not look at this as a punishment for ME.

jive turkey

I am dreading having to discipline the kid who is currently my sweet little baby.

Let me rephrase that: I'm dreading the day my sweet little baby becomes old enough to require discipline. Ugh.

Forgotten

You are my parenting hero. Seriously. I have had to put myself in timeout lately just to keep the "mean mommy" in check. My "sprited" boy goes to his room, I go to mine, and we don't speak until both of us are calmer. I never thought of using the timer so they know how long they have to stay in timeout. I'm going to the store TONIGHT to get one of those. I'll let you know how it works for me.

Sam

One of the things that makes me the CRAZIEST is when I see a parent threaten something that everyone knows they won't ever do, therefore it is meaningless. Don't ever threaten something that you won't follow through on, yo.

Great post, btw. I forwarded the link to TB. He is new to the Time Out scene as he didn't get Chicken until he (Chicken that is) was 10 years old. Damn that sentence was awkward. Sorry.

Secretmomthoughts.blogspot.com

Great advice and well said. Love that it is written as a parent and all the cross outs too.

Carrie

re: Brown Clothes.

hmmm, this could get wordy, but you touched on something that (I think) really fits in with this disussion.

As you state above, a core parenting behavior is to say what you mean, and mean what you say. My sister and I both take this very seriously, and for some reason, we're lucky enough to have kids that in turn take US seriously. My boys are 18 and 21, and they still know that if Mom says it, it's darn well gonna happen. One thing I remember that really drove home the value of my consistent behavior was a long ago dinner - the boys were probably middle school age, and table manners were a constant struggle. I said something like 'if anyone talks with their mouth full again, this will be the last dinner ever served in this house'. They both looked at me, absolutely stunned, and then we all started laughing like crazy. Why? Because they (after a moment of processing) realized that I probably would serve another dinner, and they weren't at all used to hearing empty threats. HA!

So anyway, getting back to the Brown Clothes... Molly knows that if she doesn't comply, her timeout will be lengthened, so she just kinda does it. She's also 5 1/2, so mostly past the crazy toddler stage. Additionally, the key to the whole deal is that her clothes are her 'currency'. There have been very few actual uses of the Brown Clothes, because just the fact that it could happen keeps her mostly on the straight and narrow, where other strategies had failed.

Trenches of Mommyhood

The good news? If you ARE consistent with this, as TNG has iterated, then as your children get older (I'm talking ages 4, 5 and 8, for me), then time-outs actually WORK. They stay there (on the steps) for the allotted time (until the microwave beeps) and are then able to understand and communicate what it was that got them there.

So hang in there!

Swistle

I love all the cross-outs.

She Likes Purple

I'm bookmarking the hell out of this post.

angelynn

Thank you for writing that like a parent. I've read articles and books and this and that, but so few reference what we're actually going through and how hard it is to do what they're telling us to do. I know there's no perfect method because all of our families are so different, but it's reassuring to read about people going through some of the same exact stuff you're going through. Thank you.

the new girl

@laura lou: I take FULL ADVANTAGE of the Still-in-the-Crib sitch here. I allow some wandrance (my own word, FTW!) from the chair and ignore her unless she exits the imaginary line I've drawn around the chair. Then I tell her if she doesn't stay put, I'll give her another time out, in her bed, with everything taken out. I give her another count of three and if she doesn't sit/stay there, I take her to her room and start the time out over.

My kid likes to stand beside the chair and put her head on it, or otherwise 'skirt' around. Some of it is attention-getting and if it's that, I ignore. If it's defiance and she's running away and cutting up, she goes into her bed.

Of course, with an older kid, this won't work, but generally, you can send them to their rooms, or keep putting them back. (Sometimes when they're older, this works better and doesn't feel like as much of a *game* to them.

samantha jo campen

This is awesome. Going to bookmark it for reference. Srsly.

Laura Lou

So, what do you do when getting out of the time out spot becomes a game? My little guy (same birthday as TLNG) thinks it is great fun to get up from the time out step. 20 minutes of firmly putting him back on the step and saying calmly "we sit on the step in time out" has had no effect. I would have kept it up for longer, but he progressed to hitting me for the effect, while laughing, so I carried him upstairs and put him in his crib for both of our sakes. Sigh.

the new girl

@carrie--BAAAHAHAHAAA! How does she get her INTO The Brown Clothes? I let TLNG have her favorite dou dou (Baby-Baby, OBV.) to sit in time out (usually.) If she is cutting up or showing her ass in TO, she'll get another, WITHOUT the dou dou. That's usually enough motivation/leverage. USUALLY.

Since I have to wrestle her into REGULAR CLOTHES, that she LIKES, (we call her the Nakey Streaker, if that gives you a visual) I don't foresee any Brown Outfits in our immediate future.

Bekah

OMG, PLEASE keep with the advice, TNG! I desperately need it! I grew up in a home without much discipline, so I don't have a lot to go on with my first born. He's only 15 months at this point, so I'm glad you posted this when you did. I can start gearing up for this.
However, in the meantime, what the hell do I do with him, lol? He likes to do dangerous things like climb up and stand on our rolly moving computer chairs and laugh. I KNOW that he's doing it for my reaction because he stands there and watches me until I look at him and then he laughs. I also know that at this age, redirection is generally recommended, but my kid is stubborn and has a one track mind. He'll go along with the redirection until I leave him alone and then he goes straight for whatever it was that was making me crazy. And it wouldn't make me crazy if he couldn't get hurt on it. I can calmly pull him off the chair a hundred times and he'll just giggle and go back to it. Anyway, any ideas would be appreciated.

Carrie

Great advice, and applicable for much longer than the toddler years!

Funny story from my sis, the undisputed parenting superstar:

My stubborn niece, age 5, was having some behavior issues, mainly 'stealing' things and stashing them away in her bedroom. It escalated to my brother-in-law's wallet being found in her purse, car keys, cell phones, jewelry, etc. (they started calling her the raccoon due to her fascination with shiny objects!). Time out alone wasn't cutting it, so my sis, in her words, decided to use Molly's currency. The kid is a BIGTIME diva, would change her dress hourly if she could get away with it. My sis took Molly to Goodwill and let her shop until she found an outfit that made her cry at the thought of wearing it, now known as 'the brown clothes'. Now, in a manner similar to what you describe, Molly's transgressions are treated by having to spend her timeout time wearing the brown clothes. Amazingly, it has been hugely effective now for a period of months.

So, what are your child's 'brown clothes'?

The Domestic Goddess

Well said. We did this with one, cannot do it with the other (obvious reasons).

Consistency with ANYTHING is the key. I have too many friends that are all, "OMG it didn't work I GIVE UP" after one attempt.

the new girl

@binkytowne @kelly: I agree that it's hard to keep your head on straight with the pressures of parenting. That's why when I give counsel to patients, I often tell them: This is on a list of stuff that's 'easy for me to say.' (Very, very often, the advice isn't easy to do.)

P.S. I'd be HAPPY to spout off, if you want to hear more about specific things.

Kelly

We employ the same system, but THE MOST DIFFICULT ASPECT of it for us is the remaining calm and neutral. I had to caps that, sorry. Because I'm always like, 'What the fuck, Lil?' (Inside...I say that inside, not to her. Heh.)

But it's such an important facet of this technique. And I get what Binkytowne is saying. It's easy to forget in the chaos, but ultimately, worth the effort and extra frustration that may come when initially trying something new.

For the record, my firstborn is pretty easy, while #2 has been freaking hard. On the plus side, she's four now, and I think the combo of not being three (ha!) and discipline have brought her around.

Sahara

I, too, recommend Transforming the Difficult Child. It has made a huge difference in our household. And, frankly, saying my child was "difficult" was better than some of the OTHER names I could think of to describe him. I'm so glad we seem to be out of most of that awfulness.

Susan Getgood

Ah I wish I had known you when my child was younger. I totally suck at discipline.

That said, I am getting better. A week ago my son finally drove me over the line with the damn TV. "One more show" I said no, sent him to bed, and then lived up to an oft repeated promise that I had NEVER done before and removed the tv - cable box, wii and all. It didn't go back for about a week, and under the condition that he understands TV is a privilege not a right.

Binkytowne

Will you do this for us once a week? Seriously? Alright, once a month? I know all of these things (OK most of them. Fine. Some of them) but it's so easy to forget when you are elbow deep in mac and cheese and dirty dishes and SCREAMING CHILDREN. Kthanks.

jodifur

you know what other book I really liked, Transforming the Difficult Child. Yeah, the title sucks, b/c who wants to have a "difficult child?" but it talks about how time outs are not punishments but breaks for your child to regroup and reassess and how you have to give your child positive attention not negative attention. Great book.

L

This is an awesome summary of "Magic 1-2-3" And someday I will finish that entire book. Preferably before my two-year-old turns three.

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